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LOTR:Articles to be merged
Articles to be merged are two or more pages that have been proposed to be merged into one article. This notice template may be placed on an article suspected to be a replication of another - if you mark an article to be merged, write the articles' names and your reasons here below "Articles in question". Administrators will make a decision after there is any discussion. Merges in question Dor Daidelos and Dor Daedeloth As far as I can tell, Dor Daidelos is simply an earlier name for Dor Daedeloth, appearing only in the History of Middle-earth. Additionally, only the latter name is used in The Silmarillion. I say merge, keeping the distinction clear in the 'Earlier forms of the legendarium' section. --Bitterhand (talk) 03:44, January 27, 2020 (UTC) Merges settled/denied Durin VII and Dwarves named "Durin" As long as we're going to include all the previous Durins in one article, we should be consistent; the latter article actually already includes Durin VII. For the sake of encyclopedic accessibility, I'd be in favor of giving each their own article, but that's perhaps another discussion. --Bitterhand (talk) 18:20, June 11, 2019 (UTC) "Durin VII" now redirects to the latter article. --Bitterhand (talk) 02:52, July 11, 2019 (UTC) Badgers and Middle-earth animals with List of animals Same reason as the other animals in the list; these are mentioned in passing and also not unique to Middle-earth. Merge. Bitterhand (talk) 16:20, August 1, 2018 (UTC) The first two articles now redirect to the latter. --Bitterhand (talk) 02:52, July 11, 2019 (UTC) Differences Between Jackson's Movies and Tolkien's Books and Tolkien vs. Jackson: Differences Between Story and Screenplay and Tolkien vs. Jackson: Differences Between Story and Screenplay/Major Differences These few are the last ones still left over in the "articles to be merged" category. This particular one actually has three that look like they can be merged or deleted; and personally I don't see the point of having more than one page devoted to this topic. Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 00:41, July 4, 2018 (UTC) Former and latter articles now redirect to "Tolkien vs. Jackson: Differences Between Story and Screenplay". --Bitterhand (talk) 02:52, July 11, 2019 (UTC) Thranduil's elk and Thranduil's Second Elk Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never read or seen anything implying these are different elk. The coloration does appear to be different between the first and third Hobbit films, but I always took it to be the same elk becoming grayer as it aged. Any other thoughts? --Bitterhand (talk) 00:53, September 5, 2018 (UTC) Latter redirects to former. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage, July 8th, 2019 (UTC) Elendilmir and Star of Elendil It's obvious, even in the articles, that these are the same object. '''Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 18:20, June 11, 2019 (UTC) Merged. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage, July 8th, 2019 (UTC) Alfirin and Simbelmynë These are the same flower; simply what Elves and Men called it, respectively. '''Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:36, March 17, 2019 (UTC) Articles merged. --Bitterhand (talk) 18:20, June 11, 2019 (UTC) East Sea and Eastern Seas Eastern Seas is exactly the same as the East Sea, in fact there is only one East Sea. These two articles describe the same thing. Eastern Seas can be deleted or merged with East Sea, as East Sea is much more in depth. --LonelyHorse9 (talk) 10:33, February 11, 2019 (UTC) Agreed, these are the same thing. Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 20:09, February 11, 2019 (UTC) Eastern Seas now redirects to the other. --HiddenVale, March 16, 2019 Battle in Dale and Siege of Dale These articles also are describing the same thing; though I'm not sure which title would be more appropriate. Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 22:19, December 3, 2018 (UTC) "Battle in Dale" deleted, as it was a duplicate of the latter article. --Bitterhand (talk) 20:09, February 11, 2019 (UTC) Daggers of Westernesse and Barrow-blades These articles are simply two different ways of referring to the same specific weapons. They are Daggers of Westernesse because of their origin, but referred to as Barrow-blades after their taking from the barrow-wight. In any case these articles describe the same objects; merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 02:35, December 3, 2018 (UTC) Articles have been merged. --Bitterhand (talk) 14:59, January 10, 2019 (UTC) Skirmish in Cirith Ungol and Battle of Cirith Ungol These two articles seem to talk about the same thing. I think that they should be merged. ''' ——SamtheHobbitoftheShire Agreed, these are describing the same event. '''Merge. --Bitterhand (talk) 23:00, October 1, 2018 (UTC) Merged. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 02:50, October 2, 2018 (UTC) Houses of the Dead and Hallows I believe these are simply different names for the same place; not sure which should take precedence. '''Merge'. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:28, August 3, 2018 (UTC) Merged; Hallows deleted. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' September 4, 2018 (UTC) Beer and Common Beverages in Middle Earth Operating under the assumption that beer is, in fact, a common beverage in Middle-earth, and not Middle Earth. -- 00:53, September 5, 2018 (UTC) Both have been '''deleted', for reasons given. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' September 4, 2018 (UTC) King's Men and Black Númenórean My reasoning for suggesting this is that the Black Numenoreans are a direct continuation of the King's Men. As it says in the article itself, the remaining King's Men began to be called the Black Numenoreans after Sauron returned to Mordor. There's no fundamental difference between the two except the names. Also, the title "Black Numenoreans" was given to these men directly because of what they had done and believed in Numenor. I believe we should '''merge' these under Black Númenórean and clarify they were known by a different name in earlier history. Bitterhand (talk) 15:29, August 7, 2018 (UTC) Merged 'and redirected. '[[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' August 7, 2018 (UTC) Eärnur and Mordirith It seems the precedent here is to have a single page for each character, even if they significantly change over time. For example, we don't have separate pages for Carthaen and Karsh, or Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. Granted, those examples are either both canon or both non-canon, whereas Mordirith is a non-canon version of Eärnur, but I still think we should '''merge' Mordirith into the portrayal in adaptations section of Eärnur to be consistent. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:28, August 3, 2018 (UTC) Merged; Mordirith redirected to Eärnur. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' August 2, 2018 (UTC) Isumbras Took III and Isumbras III Another pretty straightforward case; these are the same person. '''Merge'. --Bitterhand (talk) 02:46, July 13, 2018 (UTC) Isumbras III deleted. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 13, 2018 (UTC) Mordor Attack Troll, Morgul Attack Troll, and Attack Troll into Olog-hai Regardless of whether or not the first two are actually different kinds of troll (I'm of the opinion they aren't), the contents of all three articles are describing the "shock troop" trolls that break through the gates of Minas Tirith in the Return of the King film. These articles, besides being poorly written, contradict each other in whether or not the trolls at Minas Tirith are the same ones at the Black Gate. All three claim to be Olog-hai, so I believe they should be '''merged' into that article under the portrayal in adaptations section. In any case, I don't see why we should have different pages for trolls that aren't even known to be fundamentally different from each other. I'd also be supportive of merging Guldur War Troll and Guldur Olog-Hai into the Olog-hai article for the same reasons mentioned above. I'm not even sure if some of these were even ever mentioned to be Olog-hai, but something at least should be done, even if it's just renaming. --Bitterhand (talk) 16:29, July 5, 2018 (UTC) The first two have been deleted; I've created redirects of them that lead to Attack Troll, which gets to remain since it refers to a specific type of troll that consistently is portrayed in a couple adaptations. The Guldur War Troll page has been "merged" into Guldur Olog-hai and deleted. The pictures these pages have are contradictory, and I don't care to see whether the articles' distinct titles are based off of anything official. It is indeed best for them to not be separate articles, or they cause categorical ambiguity. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 5, 2018 (UTC) Orc Berserker and Bolg's Bodyguards Orc Berserkers were intended to be the Bodyguard of Bolg in the film (per the Hobbit film art and design guides), and should be '''merged' into that article under portrayal in adaptations. Bitterhand (talk) 16:24, July 17, 2018 (UTC) Merged. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 17, 2018 (UTC) Gandalf's Fireworks and Gandalf's Fireworks Pretty self-explanatory; not sure how there got to be two pages. For some reason, though, it seems you have to search for the other page, as only one of them shows up in the drop-down selection on the search bar. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:12, June 26, 2018 (UTC) Mystery finally solved; short article has been '''deleted'. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 5, 2018 (UTC) Movie vs. Book: Fellowship of the Ring and Movie vs. Book:Two Towers and Movie vs. Book: The Return of the King Similar case to the above. '''Merge'. --Bitterhand (talk) 00:41, July 4, 2018 (UTC) Finally merged, into three new sections at Differences Between Jackson's Movies and Tolkien's Books. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 3, 2018 (UTC) The Books and Tolkien To be honest, I'm not sure what page this should be merged into, but whoever left the merge notice put in Tolkien, so I'll put it here. Something at least should be done here, probably '''merge'. --Bitterhand (talk) 00:41, July 4, 2018 (UTC) The Books has been deleted. No information there was exclusive to it. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 3, 2018 (UTC) Elven armory and Elven Weapons and Armour (I noticed this and the next few in the "Articles to be merged" category and am putting these issues here hopefully to be resolved as we have time.) Looks like these should be merged. We might could even just delete the "Armory" page and move the pictures over as it is poorly written. --Bitterhand (talk) 15:32, July 2, 2018 (UTC) Both have actually been '''removed'. The latter article is superior but contains nothing that Weapons doesn't have. One special image from Elven armory has been moved to Weapons. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 2, 2018 (UTC) Flet and Talan These are the same thing; just titled in different languages. Can't see any reason for that. --Bitterhand (talk) 15:32, July 2, 2018 (UTC) '''Merged'; "Flet" deleted. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 2, 2018 (UTC) Origin of Dragons and Dragons Personally I don't see any reason to have a separate page for the speculative origins of something. In any case we don't have pages for the origins of Balrogs, Great Eagles, etc. --Bitterhand (talk) 15:32, July 2, 2018 (UTC) '''Merged' into a new section at Dragons. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' July 2, 2018 (UTC) Silvan Elves and Wood-elves These articles have been nominated for merging long before I became an admin. I am surprised it has a tag on one article, but has no open discussion here in the forum. As for myself, I vote on '''merging' these two articles, as they are basically the same thing, only that one is in Elvish name and the other is in the Westron translation. Also, with The Hobbit films being such a massive hit, the article should be thoroughly updated and cleaned-up. Your thoughts? 16:06,3/9/2015 *Agreed, there is no such group of elves as the wood elves, unless you are to apply the definition to all elves who happen to live in a wood. Caspoi (talk) 15:53, March 18, 2015 (UTC) *Clear case for Merging here. Amontadillo (talk) 15:50, January 3, 2018 (UTC) *'Hang On a Minute'. A merge is probably the correct way to go about this, but the two articles have information that contradict each other. I've never found the Elves a particularly interesting part of Tolkien's cosmology, so I won't be of too much help here, but I propose someone rewrite Silvan Elves, making sure all the good information from Wood-elves is incorporated into it, and then merge Wood-elves. Jeff (talk· ) 00:37, January 4, 2018 (UTC) :*If nobody beats me to it I'll take a crack at a rewrite for "Silvan Elves" when I have a bit more time (probably tomorrow) and do my best to incorporate the best information from both existing articles. Someone else would have to deal with deleting the old article/completing the merge though, as I don't seem to have the permissions for that? (Or maybe I'm just being too blind to find the button).Amontadillo (talk) 03:10, January 5, 2018 (UTC) :::Alright, I've rewritten the article, included the info from Wood-elves, and added a few citations for it. Would be great if someone could double-check and then complete the merge. :) Amontadillo (talk) 23:45, January 5, 2018 (UTC) :::Merged 'into Silvan Elves. '[[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 03:52, July 2, 2018 (UTC) Dwarven weapons and Dwarven Weapons and Armour Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Both articles are describing the same thing. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:32, July 2, 2018 (UTC) Ponto Baggins and Ponto Baggins I Same case as above; these are the same person. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:32, July 2, 2018 (UTC) Bow and Arrow These two articles should be merged into one article known as '''Bows and Arrows'--DarkLantern (talk) 09:17, September 17, 2017 (UTC) :I mean, does either of them really need an article at all? It seems similar to the frequently brought up example of having an article for "rabbit" or "beard" or whatever in the articles for deletion section. However, if they must stay, then yes, they should absolutely be Merged. Amontadillo (talk) 15:25, January 3, 2018 (UTC) Gundabad Orc General and List of unnamed original characters of the books and films If I remember correctly, there was already a discussion about this, as this character is already in the list of unnamed characters. Apparently there was another page created for him, though, that seems to me like it should either be deleted or merged into the list. --Bitterhand (talk) 20:52, June 26, 2018 (UTC) The Orc General article has been deleted; info on that character already exists in the List. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 00:01, June 27, 2018 (UTC) Bilbo Gardner and Bilbo Gamgee Same issue as the last merge; these two articles are about the exact same person. Appendix C makes it clear Sam's descendants eventually adopted the surname of Gardner. --Bitterhand (talk) 01:08, June 26, 2018 (UTC) '''Merged', into Bilbo Gamgee. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 02:01, June 26, 2018 (UTC) Sam's Barrow-blade and Samwise Gamgee's sword Since it looks like this hasn't been brought up yet, I thought I'd mention that it looks like we should merge these two articles. They're referring to the exact same sword. --Bitterhand (talk) 20:29, June 25, 2018 (UTC) '''Merged'. Sam's Barrow-blade is now the single article, and the other redirects to it. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 00:26, June 26, 2018 (UTC) The merging of Black Uruk and Uruk-hai This should be merged with the Uruk-hai page as another type of Uruk. I vote '''yes'.--DarkLantern (talk) 09:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC) *I vote no. I mean, the Uruk-hai page is about those of Isengard, not Mordor, whilst the Black uruk page is about the uruks of Mordor.--Saurons man (talk) 06:56, December 16, 2012 (UTC) *I vote no. '''The ones of Mordor are the Uruks under Sauron's dominion, and are mentioned in the other page. Enough stands so that they don't need to be merged. The other page is mainly of Saruman's Uruks, which came after the Black Uruks. HiddenVale 01:12, January 22, 2013 (UTC) *They are still Uruk-hai!--DarkLantern (talk) 12:22, December 16, 2012 (UTC) *:So, is that a no?--Saurons man (talk) 7:44, December 22, 2012 (UTC) *I vote '''no. It's easier, I think, to distinguish certain classes of a same race with two different pages. TheGoldenSickle (talk) 22:35, February 2, 2013 (UTC) *I vote yes however, the Uruk-hai article only talks about Saruman's Uruks and needs some serious work, considering that the Black Uruks came first. Winterz (talk) 14:31, February 27, 2013 (UTC) *'No'. Uruk-hai are black uruks that were altered by Saruman, so they're two different species. Jeff (talk| ) 15:33, June 29, 2013 (UTC) *I vote No. Black Uruks served Mordor, whereas Uruk- Hai served Isengard.Bolg, son of Azog (talk) 20:19, September 15, 2013 (UTC) *'No.' From my source (http://www.thelandofshadow.com/ ) it repeatedly mentions that these Uruks weren't ordinary, they were of Barad-Dur. So, in my opinion, REGULAR 'Uruk-hai like those of Isengard and the lesser of Mordor, should not be merged with this page. Saurons man 8:53, December 21, 2013 (UTC) *'No.' Black Uruks were from Mordor, the Uruk-Hai were Saruman's creations. Jeff (talk| ) 20:45, February 4, 2014 (UTC) *I definitively and decisively vote No.'' ''They are both Uruks, but they are two different breeds. However, both pages could still use quite a bit of work. Gen. Grievous1138 (talk) 22:02, July 16, 2014 (UTC) *'Merge'. The Uruks of Mordor are actually referred to as Uruk-Hai in the books and there is no use of the word "Black Uruks" there as far as I am concerned. Uruk-Hai Means Uruk-people or orc-people, not Uruks of Saruman. Another thing: always use the book as a reference or create a non-canon page specifically. Caspoi (talk) 17:00, October 19, 2014 (UTC) *:Admittedly I have found one reference of black Uruks in the Fellowship of the Ring in the mines of Moria but that was without a capital letter, as shown here, indicating that it was a description of their looks rather than a part of their name and the fact remains that Sarumans Uruks are commonly referred as the "Isengarders". Caspoi (talk) 17:45, November 10, 2014 (UTC) *I vote No. I think although Black Uruks are a kind of Uruk-hai, there are quite a lot of differences between them. For example, Black Uruks are better warriors, and Black Uruks joined different events with the normal Uruk-hais, for example the Battle of Cirith Ungol, Gorbag and Shagrat are different, and indeed Black Uruks(Shagrat) are captain of Uruk-hais, sharing a different status. So I think the two pages shouldn't be merged.--Prince of Erebor(talk) *:The section entitled The Stewards in Appendix A mentions this exactly about the matter the race of uruks, black uruks of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor. Now the author may have been talking about an earlier breed of Uruk or it simply may be that he was referring to them as 'black uruks of great strength' as a way of conveying 'fright'.--DarkLantern (talk) 04:55, February 8, 2015 (UTC) *::Like the Orcs and Goblins thing, we must get this settled it is utterly ridiculous that the matter should be held up for over two years.--DarkLantern (talk) 04:55, February 8, 2015 (UTC) *'Merge': I second User:DarkLantern's motion. These pages should be merged as soon as possible, as this has been a conflict for years already. —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 05:19,2/14/2015 *I vote no. ''The Black Uruks and Uruk-Hai are different. Black Uruks were elite guards of Sauron(and probably the Witch-King, as he has them in Minas Morgul), and are Mordor Orcs. Uruk-Hai are a '''new race of Orcs created by Saruman by cross-breeding goblins and orcs, plus they are Isengard Orcs, plus they are differentiated when one of the Uruk-Hai says "I don't take orders from stinking Morgul rats!", meaning that the Uruk-Hai consider themselves, different from other Orcs and are only loyal to Saruman. They don't take orders from the Great Eye, only from the White Wizard. As Saruman says "Whom do you serve, my fighting Uruk-hai?" and Lurtz replies "'''''Saruman!". Lord Seventh (talk) 11:32, June 12, 2017 *'Merge'. Lord Seventh says that they were "elite Guards of Sauron", but not even the Black Uruk article itself mentions this and it's not canon. The Uruk-hai article itself meanwhile already shows evidence of Mordor uruks and Isengard Uruks both being referred to as "Uruk-hai" (specifically RotK, Book VI, Chapter 2, where an orc soldier refers to "a pack of rebel Uruk-hai" when speaking of the Cirith Ungol incident). Here too as below for merging Goblins and Orcs, DarkLantern got it right 3 years ago. The content policy states that this is a Books First wiki. Information from movies or films is irrelevant and should only be in the Portrayal in Adaptions section in any case. Amontadillo (talk) 15:10, January 3, 2018 (UTC) Denied - the two articles exist seperately as they are, without ambiguation, and any distinctions are explained. Also because of the majority of "No" votes. [[User:HiddenVale|'''HiddenVale -]] TalkPage' 00:26, June 26, 2018 (UTC) Elves and Elf children First and foremost, what is the difference? I know the latter articles discusses about love and marriage lives of Elves, so why not just merge it to the main Elves article, but put it under a separate section? I propose that under the characteristics section, we merge the article and name it as "Lives and Customs of the Eldar", like in Tolkien Gateway. 17:32,1/5/2016 *I vote '''Yes'--DarkLantern (talk) 01:57, September 29, 2016 (UTC) *'Yes' from me too. Amontadillo (talk) 15:55, January 3, 2018 (UTC) The merging of Eye of Sauron with Sauron I would think my reasons pretty self-explanatory but I will state them anyway: The eye of Sauron is simply a symbol for Sauron (and in the movies a shape of Sauron) but I do not think that it would warrant a page of it's own. Caspoi (talk) 22:53, November 1, 2014 (UTC) *'NO. '''The Eye of Sauron is just a symbol of Sauron but that does not mean it needs to be combined with Sauron I completely agree with the person above me it doesn't really need to be two pages but neither does it need to be one, so in my opinion it should stay as tw *:So it doesn't need to be two pages but you think they should stay separate because there is to much work merging them? At any rate '''if' the article would be kept then it should at least be renamed into "The Red Eye", which is its actual term in the books/movies, among many things. The arguments for removing the article could also apply to The Hand of Saruman, and this too might fit to be renamed into "The White Hand". Caspoi (talk) 20:05, March 2, 2015 (UTC) *I vote stay separate. Not everything related to a character(s) needs to merged with them.--DarkLantern (talk) 20:42, March 2, 2015 (UTC) I have had a change of mind regarding this, partially because I slightly missunderstood the context of the article "eye of Sauron". My major objection is that if one symbol or banner etc. gain an article then must not all symbols, banners etc. gain articles? I still also think that the red eye is a much better title. Caspoi (talk) 00:03, March 15, 2015 (UTC) "Oliphants" and "Mûmakil" The articles Oliphants and Mûmakil deal the same subject. They even refer to each other with expressions such as "known more familiarly as" and "better known as". I don't see the point in keeping them both. Compared to "Mûmakil", "Oliphants" is just a stub. --Weas-El (talk) 14:42, February 25, 2017 (UTC) *'Merge to Mumakil' - The Oliphaunt article has less information and less potential than Mumakil; Oliphaunt should be a redirect, possibly to a section on the Hobbit poem. Jeff (talk· ) 01:24, August 4, 2017 (UTC) :Merge Mûmakil into Oliphants. I agree with a more Westron or English-sounding word.--DarkLantern (talk) 10:07, October 4, 2017 (UTC) ::Merge - specifically, either Oliphant into Mûmakil since the first is actually incorrectly spelled (by how Tolkien wrote it), or both into the correct spelling of Oliphaunt- going by "the most commonly used name" guideline, it ought to be Oliphaunt (at least as far as LotR goes, I don't own searchable versions of the other books). "Oliphaunt" has 18 uses in Two Towers and RotK, "Mûmak" has 4 in Two Towers and "Mûmakil" has 5 in RotK. Amontadillo (talk) 15:20, January 3, 2018 (UTC) The merging of Goblins with Orcs See discussion under "Articles for deletion." Tolkien used goblins in The Hobbit as a substitution for Orcs because he wanted to use English to make the book as simple as possible. He never meant for goblins to be considered a different species or even a type or class of orc; he just wrote goblin in situations where he would write orc in later books. Even if there is a contention that the word should continue to mean a type of Orc, as is believed by some, that can be discussed in the merged page. - Gradivus, 11:59, December 22, 2012 (UTC) I disagree with this. The two terms aren't quite synonyms; the pages work how they are without confusion, and ''is already specified that they are almost on and the same. On this Wiki, Peter Jackson's '''films' also take part in everything they include. On a site only about the vast content of Tolkein's works, this would be reasonable. But not here. That is why the Deletion-template is removed on the Goblins page. HiddenVale 20:07, December 22, 2012 (UTC) : Tolkien considered them synonyms, and I think Tolkien has to be the ultimate arbiter on this point. And here's what he actually wrote: :: "Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." - The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #131: To Milton Waldman :: "Orcs ... owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where Orc only occurs once, I think)..." - The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #144: To Naomi Mitchison :: "Your preference of goblins to Orcs involves a large question and a matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my part. Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins', not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble)." - The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #151: From a letter to Hugh Brogan, explaining why he decided to stop calling the creatures "goblins" except when characters were speaking colloquially, and preferred using "orcs" when talking about them. :: "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind." - JRR Tolkien, in a note in the revised edition of The Hobbit, explaining why he had originally not used "orc" when talking about orcs in that book. When he says "these creatures" he's talking about the creatures he referred to as "goblins" in The Hobbit. : - Gradivus, 15:16, December 26, 2012 (UTC) : Well thanks for leaving the Merge-template on the page until it's had a chance to be voted on and a decision by Admin has been made. I vote merge. - Gradivus, 20:21, December 22, 2012 (UTC) : Well you're welcome. I vote not merge. HiddenVale 00:08, December 23, 2012 (UTC) ::I agree with Gradivus merge--DarkLantern (talk) 09:17, December 26, 2012 (UTC) :::Am I allowed to vote here? If so I vote not merge. -The Forgotten Beast (talk) 01:48, January 15, 2013 (UTC) :::I also vote not merge. 'TheGoldenSickle (talk) 22:32, February 2, 2013 (UTC) :::'No, because the Goblins have achieved a certain notability and deserve their own article considering the large information on them (which differs from overall Orc info), regardless of them being the same species. Winterz (talk) 14:32, February 27, 2013 (UTC) :Do Not Merge: Although Tolkien generally used the terms 'goblin' and 'orc' interchangeably, there are enough distinctions in Tolkien's books, and far more in other adaptations (the Battle of Middle Earth games consider goblins and orcs to be 2 different species) to warrant having separate articles. Jeff (talk| ) 15:25, June 29, 2013 (UTC) ::There should be only Uruk-hai NOT Black uruks. What evidence of races within Uruks is there?--DarkLantern (talk) 05:52, April 8, 2014 (UTC) :Merge: Tolkien explains explicitly clearly many times that goblin is simply the English counterpart for the word Orc. He makes no distinctions between the two at all, and uses them interchangeably. The goblin page is nothing but a smaller version of the Orc page, and is redundant to the wikia. The pages should be merged. -Areades (talk) 22:40, July 1, 2014 (UTC) :Merge. Any differences between Orcs and goblins can be discussed in a special section on the merged page. Keep in mind also that Tolkien is the authority on this subject- not Peter Jackson. :Merge. One could simply have a "Goblins in the New Line Cinema" with a "NonCanon" template but if we are to keep true to Tolkien's works, which we should, there is no separate group of goblins different from other Orcs. Caspoi (talk) 16:40, October 19, 2014 (UTC) :No. 'Tolkien may have used both Goblin and Orc to describe the same group of creature. It should be noted that Tolkien thought of them as the same and also noted that in Peter Jackson's not fully cannon works Goblins appear to be different to Orcs. It should explicitly say that Tolkien's Orcs and Goblins may have been the same in the books but differ in other non cannon works. It also seems that the word Goblin is used in current citations and for some Orcs who live outside of Mordor, As far as I know it appears in Tolkien's earlier works Goblins and Orcs were separate but as his works continued he seems to mix them together and eventually state that goblin is the English word for Orc. So Tolkien had some dispute to whether he would mix Orcs and Goblins or not until later on in his works :'Merge: I think Goblins and Orcs are the same in the books, so there is no need two pages for the same topic, although goblins in the movie is different from Orcs. But I think these can be solve by listing their differences in the Portrayal in adaptations section. ---''Prince of Erebor''-(Reply Press Here) ::::Merge: It is utterly ridiculous that this matter should be held in council for over two years. 'Goblins' is just another name for Orcs! I have looked it up in two different sources: the index in the back of my The Lord of the Rings and the entry 'Goblins' refers you to Orcs and in my copy of The Complete Guide to Middle-earth it does the same thing refers you to 'Orcs'. I've always respected the voting procedure well but in this case the canon truth overrules the majority. Unless anyone has any other canon book information to refute this, I may just or maybe I will just merge it myself ending this debate once and for all.--DarkLantern (talk) 04:55, February 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::I guess it is partly my fault for not offering my sources up earlier and being a bit divided between respecting the majority voting and to the truth. I was also waiting for a competent editor to merge properly. This is soon going to dealt with and the matter closed permanently.--DarkLantern (talk) 04:55, February 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::I agree Dark Lantern, but I don't agree to merge black uruks and uruk-hais though. Well, I may help in merging the Goblins and Orcs pages if you want. ---''Prince of Erebor''-(Reply Press Here) :::::Merge: I second User:DarkLantern's motion. These pages should be merged as soon as possible, as this has been a conflict for years already. —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 05:20,2/14/2015 ::::::Merge: If I understand Gradivus findings right, Tolkien then preferred 'Orcs' over 'Goblins' and thus the term became the most widely known name for them. This wiki uses the most popular and widely known whether or not it is English-sounding or English. This wiki being book first also does not rely on movie or other adaptations to found its canon materials either, meaning just because the movies or games imply something enough does mean it will become the truth. I still say, prefer, and vote for Orcs as the name. I vote merge.--DarkLantern (talk) 17:22, February 14, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I vote to not merge: Goblins, were smaller than Orcs(as seen in goblin-town), and weren't warriors like orcs(they always attacked in large packs when they could outnumber the enemy)(but they mixed with Orcs and were their allies(as explained with the alliance of Azog and the Goblin King of Moria). And the Goblin-King refers to himself and his people as goblins and Azog as an Orc. So even though, Tolkien said Orc is another word for Goblin, I believe the movies have given the goblins enough material to have their own article. Its just like the Uruk-Hai and Black Uruks(same species but different types). ::::::Another piece of evidence is that regarding the creation of Uruk-Hai it is said they were made by cross-breeding Goblins and half-orcs(again signifying that they are different). ::::::Lord Seventh (talk) 11:53, June 12, 2017 (UTC) Lord Seventh Move request: "Ithilien (Gondor)" back to "Ithilien" That page was moved according to move log with the following reason: "Because it's the name of a folk metal band too". So what? This wiki is not about folk metal bands. I request moving it back to the original lemma. Sorry, if this request is misplaced. I didn't find a better place for it. --Weas-El (talk) 15:55, February 25, 2017 (UTC) Archive *Archive 1 *Archive 2 Category:Wiki Category:Articles to be merged